Still A Few Miles To Go

The scene was the New York Comicon. I was walking along the rows with some guys I knew from a media outlet. Among them was an African-American gentleman.

We were commenting on how the crowd gets more diverse every year. At some point in the last decade, gaming stopped being an all-white all-male dorkfest and became, if not a RAINBOW dorkfest, at least a little more representative of humanity. Nerds of all stripes, genders, and proclivities roamed the conference center in the cold winter of 2007. And we old men and women looked upon it, and found it good.

But it was still overwhelmingly white male. If you are reading this, you are probably a white male. Unless you have been specially trained, or unless you were born with astute observational powers, you might not even notice that mainstream games and gaming products tend to be designed and marketed entirely for you with no regard for the rest of humanity. This is not because you are a bad person. This is because fish don’t notice that water is wet.

This is not a rant about women and people of color being marginalized. Being a quarter Mexican and a quarter Russian Jew doesn’t make me brown enough to rant about minority issues, so I can only speak to being female in the industry. In my opinion, it’s not that bad. I never faced any trouble in six years in the industry that I couldn’t handle with a quick backhand and a smile.

But it’s not that good, either. Women that started at the same time as their male counterparts were not offered the small projects that build leadership ability, not invited to private meetings, and not criticized (aka mentored). A few years of this, and when a real leadership position opens up, well… after a few years of grooming, the male who had been the female’s equal was obviously better for the job, no question about it and to give the female the job would have been tokenism at its worst. I saw this at multiple companies over multiple years. Some women escape the trap through force of personality, luck, and occasionally good management. Most don’t.

But, times are a-changing, I think. There are more women in middle management now, across the industry, and it is from middle management that project leads are born. Every woman whose partner does half after their kid comes along (so they can both pursue professional success) is a woman who defuses the concern that we’re all just ticking uterus bombs waiting to explode. And every modern nerdcon has attendees (the employees of tomorrow) of every variety who just love games regardless of the marketing. Frankly, the marketing is changing. Some genius finally noticed that the brown people and the girl people have money to spend.

But there I was in New York, walking and talking with a black reporter. We weren’t playing “More Oppressed Than Thou,” but we were talking about the differences in perspective given our minority status in the grand hall.

Just as I was about to grant him that there were FAR more women running around than African Americans, and that perhaps we’ve come farther in terms of gender than color, we walked past a booth where a marketing girl was speaking very slowly into a microphone.

“Hey, guys, come on over and sign up for our drawing! You could win this shirt signed by THIS real live Fragdoll! She’s a lady gamer.”

I turned to my companion, and said, “Can you imagine someone saying that about a black gamer?”

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45 Comments

  1. Beno said,

    July 10, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Great post! You’ve identified the same system that gives us Lady Doctor, and Male Nurse and Female Police Officer: categories are often coded male and female, and, at the moment, gamer is coded male. All we can do is interrupt the discourse whenever we encounter it.

  2. mystery said,

    July 10, 2007 at 9:33 am

    Hey, can I be a black gamer? I’ve often wanted to be a different stereotype than I am. Besides, “pasty white” doesn’t match my clothes.

  3. Mark W said,

    July 10, 2007 at 10:06 am

    Had a chat with a British-Caribbean geek friend of mine and he was saying it’s still deeply uncool to be perceived as a geek in his family and friends, his mates might play games and read comics but they’d never be seen dead going to conventions. Lad culture i.e. talking about football, women, booze, music etc is much more mainstream and because there aren’t the gatherings of black geeks out there, they don’t attract them, kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. It’s also something to do with less Black people going to university, in the UK, one of the major recruiting grounds for geek culture. It’s changing though, but going to take a while before things gain enough momentum to cause real change.

  4. sylvia said,

    July 10, 2007 at 11:20 am

    Although I hate such tactics, the comparison isn’t really apt. A “lady gamer” is horny and has (or is believed to have) a special appeal to those geeky white guys … so much so that they would want a t-shirt signed by one for nefarious fantasy purposes. In most cases, a t-shirt signed by a black gamer just wouldn’t have the same appeal….

  5. Ken S said,

    July 10, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    Reading this post reminded me of Chasing Amy, in the scene where Ben Aflec is talking to Dwight Ewell (the black homosexual comic artist) where he’s completely in character during a panel discussion and as soon as the panel’s over he’s a completely different flamboyant personality.

    Oh, and hooray for white males.

  6. Grimjakk said,

    July 10, 2007 at 12:34 pm

    I’ve had to take that “special training” a time or two for various jobs (just retail management… nothing too dramatic)…

    I can see what you’re looking at… but be careful of staining the general “market” population with the same sins that industry management may still be prey too.

    Looking at it from the outside, it seems to me that much of the game industry still lacks professionalism at the top levels.

    As far as the legions of geeks go… your market is… your market. =)

    THEY chose to spend their dollars on your product. There are a lot of factors beyond the reach of your marketting dollars that influence that decision.

  7. Alexis said,

    July 10, 2007 at 12:38 pm

    Ok, so I’m a young white male gamer, but I don’t get the problem with the Fragdoll.

    1) She’s profiting, she’s complicit and she’s an isolated case. Maybe it’s a bit obvious and tacky, but women are employed to sell *everything*. Even to other women.
    2) Guy gamers LIKE girl gamers (although the RESPECT may be low). In contrast black/Muslim stereotypes are mainly negative. It would be progress for a black endorsement to work.

    The respect problem will sort itself out over time. Gaming is unique in having detailed statistics available, without a reliance on physical power. When girls are 50% with men on the ladders, respect is inevitable. The female gamer population isn’t big enough to have produced a fatal1ty yet, that’s all. Hell, the entire gamer population is barely big enough to have produced one, he’s the only pro I’ve heard of.

    Colour (and sex) are too obvious to ever go away, the best we can hope for is to blur the lines and build mutual admiration. I bet “Rap Hero with Kanye West” would go down great. I feel proud to be part of a crowd that will come out and say “she’s a nice colour”.

    What would be a perfect picture of gaming gender equality, in your eyes? What needs to be done (by the industry/white males) that isn’t already being done? To my eyes, the gaming/computing industry is begging women to buy products. The trouble is we don’t know how to make the right products. Women aren’t that interested in tech jobs generally, so getting input is hard. A focus committee would so not cut it, we both know.
    I actually helped host EXITE camp last week trying to get 12-13 year old girls more interested in a career in science or technology. Seriously, I’m sure it isn’t like this everywhere, but my tiny neck of the woods is bending over backwards.

    http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/02/jades_black_rac.html
    The one race Jade clearly is not, is white. White skin doesn’t tan that deep. Personally I figured she was mixed black, not that I care – arguably I have that luxury because I’m white.

    Sensitive topic :p
    My tribe are blamed for everything, rightly so in many cases but there are a lot of us and we aren’t all evil.

  8. Khan said,

    July 10, 2007 at 12:41 pm

    We are just different color pens in the great pocket protector of nerdliness. 🙂

    Interesting post, S. While the game industry seems to have more testosterone flowing through it than many tech sectors, I wonder how much of the differences of treatment regarding race or gender are gaming industry related verses technology industry related. On the whole, tech has been great for white males and lousy for … well … everyone else. My first real job out of college was in a call center. I was made the default tech person (trouble-shooting problems before we called in the pros). I was told that, as a guy, I would be better at it than others. I was the only male in the department at the time. My appointment to Chief Nerd was made by my manager: a woman. I’m not lamenting my first moves into technology, but the reason I was selected was just dumb. My undergrad degree is in Religion and my tech skills included spreadsheet sorting and the ability to format a Word document. Not exactly what most people would look for in their “go-to” person for printer / PC problems.

    I am sure that the gaming industry may differ in the intensity of gender or race differences, but our society as a whole could use some waking up as far as gender and race with regard to tech as a whole.

  9. Skyles said,

    July 10, 2007 at 12:52 pm

    While I can’t speak to being a minority, I can speak to being gender titled and suffering occupational bias. => Man-Nanny (some people insist on using the term Manny).

    The Mother’s family accepts the idea, invites me to family events and regularly sends me Christmas gifts. The Father’s family, however, is largely convinced something underhanded is going on between me and the Mother – despite the fact that the Father is the one who found and hired me, knowing that they needed a nanny and wanting a masculine role-model for his son. His family simply cannot comprehend of any semi-educated man being willing to raise children without some sort of scandalous ulterior motives.

    Out in the world, wherever I take my (now 4-year old) charge, things always go well. He’s usually complimented for being outgoing, talkative and inquisitive, and notable for his ability to do things like swimming, diving, throwing frisbees and balls, or using bats). However, should I find need to explain that I’m not his father, but rather his nanny, the friendly comradery nearly always vanishes. The icing effect is almost visible – the parents get twitchy and nervous, start finding excuses to pull their children away, find someone else for them to play with, or even gather up and leave.

    Breaking into any activity that is dominated by any demographic that does not include your perceived “type” is rough. Not because people openly fight it, but because they resist the idea that you would have an honest desire to get involved or that you could have the skills to get involved.

    Women who get involved in gaming face that attitude all the time. I regularly see “girl-gamers” dismissed as tag-alongs (eg, not a “real gamer”), playing because they date or married a gamer, obviously individually incompetent since they always play as part of their couples-team. Even after months or years as a gamer, they have to prove themselves to every new person they meet – not because men are knowingly hostile, but because people instinctively react to non-standard element with suspicion (“she’s in it because of ulterior motives”) or condescension (“she doesn’t know what she’s doing” and either “here, let me do that for you” or “don’t include her, we’re leet!”). It’s those instinctive reactions that make staying involved harder than initially getting involved, and which make it so necessary for women to find a gamer-group where they can establish themselves – a subgroup within the subculture where they are recognized as both honestly interested and individually competent; its also why so many women stop being involved if their gamer-group dissolves – the idea of going through the process of establishing your honest interest and competence all over again is a tiring prospect. Trust me, I know.

  10. Brinstar said,

    July 10, 2007 at 1:05 pm

    It is changing, but slowly. For every cool moment one has, marveling at the growth in diversity in the nerdly pursuits over the years, you still get the everyday WTF moments where the ‘fish’ actively point out that you don’t belong: http://community.livejournal.com/girl_gamers/3311114.html. I suspect that fandom is changing faster than the industry, if the blogs, forums, and conventions are anything to go by.

  11. daskindt said,

    July 10, 2007 at 2:49 pm

    Nice thoughts. The frustrating thing can be trying to talk about this issues with people (fish) that have never had to reflect on the fact. Too many people assume that because their hobby has always catered to their needs, it is automatically satisfying the needs of any reasonable individual.

    Gaming and Nerddom in general need more inclusive approaches that expand boundaries and encourage diversity.

  12. UnionCarbide said,

    July 10, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    Alexis said: “Ok, so I’m a young white male gamer, but I don’t get the problem with the Fragdoll.”

    The problem is not with the Fragdoll per se, it’s with the fact that she is described as a “lady” or “girl” gamer, as opposed to just a Gamer.

  13. Jadawin said,

    July 10, 2007 at 10:51 pm

    Yeah, things are rough all over

  14. July 11, 2007 at 9:31 am

    Skyles got it right in one! I introduced my fiance to the world of Halo and GuildWars, but everyone always assumes it’s the other way around. And should I beat him at something, it’s always “luck” or “he let her win.” Our close friends and guildmates know the truth (and are greatly amused by it), but we’ve lost more than one member to our guild because they can’t accept the fact that one of the two co-leaders (the other being my SO) is a female. Worse yet that she’s the PvP master.

    In real life I’ve only had people have issues with me being a girl FPS gamer. Reactions like “Guys let you win because they want to sleep with you, not because you’re good,” and “I’m not going to play against a girl, she might cry,” are everywhere.

    When I’m talking about an MMO though, people tend to react much cooler, ie – “Wow, you’re a chick gamer? (never girl, always chick) That’s so cool, you don’t see many of those around. What profession are you? …” And it goes into a nice conversation and an exchanging of IGNs. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten the cold shoulder from a fellow MMO’er in RL.

    Is there a correlation here? Are FPS players the “jocks” of the nerd-world? Or have I just met a bunch of asshats?

  15. TPRJones said,

    July 11, 2007 at 10:04 am

    UnionCarbide said: The problem is not with the Fragdoll per se, it’s with the fact that she is described as a “lady” or “girl” gamer, as opposed to just a Gamer.

    That’s not fair. It’s not like this is some random gamer that happens to be female that was tagged as such. The Fragdolls are selling themselves as girl gamers. That’s their stchick, and that’s how they make money. You can’t get pissy with someone for calling them a “lady” or “girl” gamer when that’s what the label they themselves are using for financial reasons.

    If you have to blame someone, blame the Fragdoll and the company she’s working for. She’s the one cashing in on it.

  16. Drey said,

    July 11, 2007 at 11:40 am

    @TPRJones: If “girl gamer” wasn’t treated as an odd or exceptional thing to be, no one would pay any attention to the Fragdolls. They didn’t create the culture, they’re just exploiting it. I don’t think it’s correct to blame the Fragdolls, but I also don’t think it’s correct to blame anyone.

  17. Artheos said,

    July 12, 2007 at 6:02 am

    While pursuing an integrated society is a desirable activity and should result in a laudable outcome, let us be wary that we do not move ourselves to the future of Time Trax and Blanco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Trax

    The beginning of this blog posting seemed to carry a hint of stereotyping of young white males. Diversity is good, and every cross section of humanity makes up that diversity.

  18. Knurd said,

    July 12, 2007 at 6:19 pm

    I think marketing will probably be slower to catch up than, say, actual game design.

    Troo Storee:

    I was with my then-girlfriend at a mall, and we headed into a game shop. Right out front was a display stating, “Games for Girls!” filled with several games which may or may not have been related to Barbie or ponies. She took umbrage at the targeted marketing and I can’t say I disagreed with her. Singling out a characteristic of gamers, or people for that matter, still seems in poor taste to me; much like how Kools were marketed to black people, but Marlboros were marketed to gay cowboys. I smoked Lucky Strikes, myself.

    Anyways, the irony of that situation was one of the games on that shelf. Cookin’ Mama was a game I owned and enjoyed thoroughly, but she had never played. Guess that makes me some sort of hermaphrodite gamer, or something…

  19. Knurd said,

    July 12, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    P.S. – I would play a Barbie game, if the lore didn’t suck so much.

  20. July 13, 2007 at 9:07 am

    Knurd – 1, thanks for making me laugh about the Barbie thing.
    2 – You’re lucky I wasn’t with you in the mall, because I would’ve embarrassed the crap out of you, because I’m the sort of person who’d go into that store and bitch to everyone until something was done about it and apologies were issued to every female within a 50 mile radius.
    3 – You actually play Cookin’ Mama? WHY?!? Of course, I say the same thing to my friends who play WoW, but really, I’d like to understand what appeal that game could possibly have, because I played it, and I really just don’t get it.

  21. Grimjakk said,

    July 13, 2007 at 11:06 am

    I just watched Nintendo’s E3 hoohaw… the demographic they flashed up still shows an 80/20 male to female split for the “core gamer”.

    They used the number to illustrate how the Wii/DS is bringing a lot more people into the marketplace. (I think the Nintendo number was closer to 60/40 M/F, but I don’t remember the exact statistic.)

  22. mythago said,

    July 13, 2007 at 10:29 pm

    My tribe are blamed for everything, rightly so in many cases but there are a lot of us and we aren’t all evil.

    My tribe is heartily freaking sick of hearing the reflexive “but we’re not ALL like that so stop BEING SO MEAN!” whaambulance call anytime somebody points out that not all is well in the Rainbow Dork Kingdom. As you say, Alexis, like != respect. Wanting female gamers around because it might be easier to get a fellow MMORPGer into the sack is not the same as actually thinking that a female gamer could lead a raid, or would be a good guildmaster.

  23. Knurd said,

    July 14, 2007 at 8:12 am

    Goddess: I thought Cookin’ Mama was a well-crafted game. It used the functionality of the DS to a good degree, and provided a fair amount of extrapolation; make a rice bowl, then use the rice bowl to make more complex recipes. It portrayed a simple design, yet allowed for deeper achievement and some fun in a skill-based format. Like they say: it’s not the size of the stylus; it’s how you write your name.

    Games like that have a better chance of breaking the gender barrier. Intrinsically, it is a challenging game. The theme of “girl game” or “home economics” pales in comparison, to the point of irrelevance.

    The point I made before, about marketing catching up later, signifies the fact that more and more women are participating in game design and other aspects of the industry. I feel this will have a marked effect on the type and quality of games that are created and/or published.

    It will be fascinating, to me, to see games that have different incentives and end-games from the conventional, competitive, defeatist orientation that most games have today. Masculine attitude usually plays off of a negative-sum game, where someone has to lose for another to win; particularly in a multi-player environment.

    Creating a virtual world seems to require an understanding of a certain harmonic and spontaneous existance, which I don’t feel most modern, white, male, trust-fund, monkey-boys are really willing to recognize. They may tell themselves that, because they have a pre-teen child who “keeps them in touch with what is fun.”, but I’ve seen enough of them get pissed about losing a game to know that it’s smoke up the arse. If you get pissed about losing a game; you don’t really know what fun is. You’ve lost the moment.

  24. Knurd said,

    July 14, 2007 at 8:15 am

    I misspelled ‘existence’. Oh, the irony.

  25. Skeetarian said,

    July 14, 2007 at 10:59 am

    Granted, DAoC is not a thriving game by any stretch of the imagination…But for all those that keep harping on the inequities for the female’s in the gaming world, you might be pleased to learn that:

    Co-Founder for the #1 Mid Alliance, female
    GM’s of 5 of the top guilds, female
    Top MA’s (that everyone wants in their group when they /lfg), female

    Trouble is, people that start classifying other people as ‘worthy’. Whether that be worthy of being considered a candidate for a job or worthy of being the person considering who’s worthy for the job.

    Trash is trash. It’s everywhere. If you choose to live with it and not pick it up and throw it out when it starts cluttering up the kitchen, then you’re no better than the trash.

    There’s white trash, black trash, brown trash, male trash, female trash, straight trash, gay trash. Are you a trash collector?

    You can ultimately only clean up the trash in your immediate vicinity. Do that, and just maybe the neighbors will see what a nice house you have and start picking up their trash. If not, why continue to live there and bemoan the state of their yard?

    Unless you’re going to run for office to become the City Manager and start enforcing the trash laws, look around and see if there isn’t another street in your neighborhood that isn’t so trashy and move there.

    If enough of you get together and keep your houses in order, the value of the houses on your street will go up and more and more pressure will be put on your old neighbors to clean their acts up.

    Point is, stop bitching about it and start doing something about it.

    If you don’t think your company is ‘fair’, go find one that is.

    If you don’t think your manager is ‘fair’, talk to the HR department about it.

    It’s very easy to sit and gripe to yourself or those in the cubes immediately surrounding yours…or the blogosphere. But, if you don’t have the will power to do something about your situation…then, who’s fault is that?

    Ultimately, if there are enough people with the will power to do something, they will find each other and their ’cause’ will move from ground-swell to emerging technology to full fledged market/leader.

    So, in game terms…STFU or GTFO…We’ve got a Relic Raid to go on and not as many people care about your race and/or sex as you’d like to believe. We just want to log on and play ‘that’ game with people that are fun, competent and willing to work together toward the same goal…and to be honest, competent isn’t even that big a component if you’re fun and bring the siege equipment!

  26. mythago said,

    July 14, 2007 at 9:51 pm

    Point is, stop bitching about it and start doing something about it.

    Pointing out that a problem exists is the first step to “doing something about it”. Sure, you can put yourself to the trouble of quitting and starting over every time you run into an asshole. Why should you disrupt your life/quit your game/find a new job while they stay put in pig-happy ignorance?

    “STFU or GTFO” is shorthand for “quit whining, bitch”. Do you really think we’re that stupid?

  27. Skeetarian said,

    July 15, 2007 at 10:05 am

    That’s why I also listed the part about going to the HR department. It’s only pig-happy ignorance until someone smacks their snout and tells THEM to STFU or GTFO.

    We’re beyond the point of pointing out a problem exists and letting it go at that, IMO. Maybe the gaming industry is lagging behind the times a tad, but there are precedents set by many, many others that have gone before you…If you’re serious about making a change in a work culture, build a case and present it. Whether that be to the HR department or a lawyer is your call depending upon your situation.

    The beauty of those precedents is they are NOT industry specifics. They can be applied to any company. Wrong is wrong, regardless of the place you work.

    As to your bait at the end of your post…Pointing out a problem exists becomes whining, when you don’t start doing something about it…Whether that be research, reporting or bringing a lawsuit is up to you. If posting on this blog allows you an adequate amount of venting about the issue to be able to put your head down and go back into work the next day to deal with the asshole, then good for you!

    …or would that also qualify as pig-happy ignorance? :p

  28. mythago said,

    July 15, 2007 at 10:48 am

    Who said anything about “letting it go at that”? Why do you assume that pointing out a problem is and can only ever be venting?

    Your post says that there are really only two choices:
    1) STFU.
    2) Leave.

    You present a false dilemma–pointing out a problem and doing something about the problem thereafter cannot both be done, and somebody who does the former, in your eyes, can’t possibly be doing the latter. You also don’t believe that pointing out a problem *can* be an act. (Imagine if my HR director rolled her eyes and said “STFU or GTFO”?)

    And I’m sure you know how effective it is to run to HR or a lawyer without ever talking to the person (s) who is the problem.

  29. Zaphod said,

    July 15, 2007 at 10:57 am

    DAoC probably has a larger female population then other MMOGs.

    If I stretch my mind back to DAoC beta, I recall that many folks were happy that the game did not conform to traditional fantasy stereotypes. Chainmail bikini’s are stupid, and that kind of blatant sexism, objectification, and negative body-image crap that pervades the gaming community to this day drives away women.

    I believe this kind of thing will fade away naturally. As more women get involved in creating our games, good sense will prevail. A good game will appeal to people, not a target demographic.

    As for actively working to change things, make your voice heard, and vote with your wallet. Don’t buy games that perpetuate values you object to, and write to the game companies and calmly explain to them why they lost your money, and what they can do better next time.

  30. July 15, 2007 at 11:01 am

    […] response to Sanya’s post over at Eating Bees about the whole “lady gamer” thing, you’d expect the usual whiny “waaaa not […]

  31. MIke Shears said,

    July 15, 2007 at 8:31 pm

    sanya shoot me a email when you see this please

    PS sorry for putting this here not sure where else it can go

    mike

    Loyal Minion of Lady sanya

  32. Phaltran said,

    July 16, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    IMO it’s not the game developers’ or the game companies’ fault for not subscribing to non-white or female groups: its our current society and “acceptable actions.”

    Girls are supposed to be delicate, flowery and womanly in order to attract a male that will “take care of them.” Doing something remotely connected to male “activities” makes her a lesbian. Social expectations and conservatism makes it very difficult for women to do what they want freely without judgment or criticism.

    Black males are supposed to be tough, street-wise and disinterested (according to black friends of mine). Getting involved in computer games is frowned upon by peers and family. Again it’s not what is socially acceptable.

    I’m grateful my wife and many other women I know do not cater to these outdated ideas. I really enjoy playing WoW with my wife and daughters. I despise any store trying to sell “games for girls.” My daughter would laugh as she runs them off the road in Need for Speed. 🙂 I’ve tried getting a close friend of mine (black male; just retired from the army) into WoW. I thought he was having technical difficulties or some real life complication, but the more I thought about it, I’m thinking that gaming just may not be “a black thing.” I’ll ask him next time I chat with him.

    I discovered a (female) friend of mine is a fragger just this past weekend. She apparently came in sixth female player in the state Quakefest. I can easily see any woman being into RPG or MMOs, but FPS just don’t strike me as something women would like. I don’t like them myself and I figured it was my feminine side speaking up. 🙂

    I think that it’s mostly males in gaming because males are skilled at shirking responsibility and spending a good deal of time doing nothing productive. My wife didn’t play games for a while because she was too busy with the children. I helped where I felt comfortable, but with two girls, I was locked out of the bathroom quickly. Then she was too busy with the housework. I helped there, too. Finally WoW interested her enough for her to stop working so much and just play now and again. I imagine a great many women either cannot get help with their responsibilities so they don’t play because there is always more to do, or they fell guilty for allowing themselves play time.

    Therefore, the companies aren’t excluding anyone from gaming; they’re simply catering to the market that is present and accounted for.

  33. July 16, 2007 at 5:43 pm

    […] a very interesting thing happened…  I started reading Sanya’s blog, Eating Bees.  this sentence caught my attention: Women that started at the same time as their male […]

  34. Knurd said,

    July 17, 2007 at 9:58 am

    While I’m drunk; I feel I should comment on why you think Norwegian, or German, or French, or Irish, or Dutch, or English, now so casually fall under the moniker of caucasian; or white. It is the same sensibility that groups many people under a simple moniker.

    Same as if I said all Nigerians, Haitians, Jamaicains, and Ethiopiains are black. There’s still a fucking difference in culture.

    Same as saying all girls are the same; as all boys are.

    They don’t all like the same shit, and they never have. When can we develop enough to see the distinctions, and dispose with category?

  35. Skeetarian said,

    July 23, 2007 at 10:00 pm

    “Who said anything about “letting it go at that”? Why do you assume that pointing out a problem is and can only ever be venting?”

    My apologies. But, as you didn’t offer any subsequent steps beyond pointing it out, why would I assume you had any?

    “Your post says that there are really only two choices:
    1) STFU.
    2) Leave.”

    No, but here are some of the others in case you missed them:
    “…making a change in a work culture, build a case and present it”
    “Whether that be research, reporting or bringing a lawsuit is up to you.”

    I point out that the STFU or GTFO were meant to add a contextual relation back to gaming…But, my points were directly at the work place.

  36. Taemojitsu said,

    July 24, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    Knurd,

    You have to think about why prejudice exists at all. People instinctively think that those whom they think to be “similar” will share their interests and will band together with them, physically or socially or w/e, against common “enemies”. When people see the color of skin, for example, as being important and a part of one’s “identity”, then it is. If people thought that actual ethnicity, in the sense of what part of the world their ancestors came from was important, then that’s what prejudice would be based off of… but in the U.S. at least, lots of people don’t even know, so skin color is used as a heuristic instead.

    Prejudice of any kind isn’t very good; I wonder if making distinctions inside of broad categories like “white” or “black” would even be good. I guess it might. It’s a tough problem 😦

  37. mythago said,

    July 25, 2007 at 9:16 am

    But, as you didn’t offer any subsequent steps beyond pointing it out, why would I assume you had any?

    Why would you assume that because I didn’t outline every possible course of action to be taken in every situation, that I therefore advocated doing nothing? Or, for that matter, that Sanya did?

    On bringing a lawsuit, you aren’t likely to get very far if you did nothing before going to a lawyer.

  38. Taemojitsu said,

    July 25, 2007 at 2:51 pm

    /agree with Skeetarian, the market will eventually sort it out. Just give it time.

    Stop with the flaming please.

  39. Taemojitsu said,

    July 25, 2007 at 3:28 pm

    Hmmm possibly sexist attitude incoming.

    Females tend to value relationships more and dislike conflict. Males tend to like conflict. This is just how it is. As… Knurd said, certain games like FPSes tend to be very zero-sum or negative sum; there isn’t a way for everyone to “win”. It makes sense that females, generally speaking, would not like games like this as much. PvP in other games, like WoW for example, is not always about who “wins” so much as that everyone’s having fun; after all, it is optional, and there are different things you can do in the game (which is just another reason why I don’t think there will be another game as good as WoW was in the beginning for a very long time.. >.

  40. Taemojitsu said,

    July 25, 2007 at 3:30 pm

    aaargh! ok that’s the last time I make that mistake.

    (which is just another reason why I don’t think there will be another game as good as WoW was in the beginning for a very long time.. >.<). World PvP especially is more than a bit like roleplaying.

    Saying that participation in games should be equal for both sexes is pretty much saying that either females need to be more bloodthirsty and aggressive, the kind of thing that would get them labeled a “bitch” IRL, or that 13-year-old boys need to be more feminine. Which is it?

  41. Taemojitsu said,

    July 25, 2007 at 3:35 pm

    damnit isn’t there anyway to display a left-pointing bracket?! trying again…

    (which is just another reason why I don’t think there will be another game as good as WoW was in the beginning for a very long time.. >.<). World PvP especially is more than a bit like roleplaying.

    Saying that participation in games should be equal for both sexes is pretty much saying that either females need to be more bloodthirsty and aggressive, the kind of thing that would get them labeled a “bitch” IRL, or that 13-year-old boys need to be more feminine. Which is it?

  42. mythago said,

    July 26, 2007 at 10:36 am

    Women who ever disagree with a man learn very quickly that they’re going to get called “bitch” online and IRL, so no loss there. What’s your point, Tae? That you’re afraid a 13-year-old boy who likes crafting better than PVP in WoW is going to wake up to find out his penis has falled off?

  43. Taemojitsu said,

    July 27, 2007 at 11:46 am

    so much anger! Calm down mythago, they’re only games. People do what they want to do. They don’t need you to tell them what they want.

  44. ASShole said,

    August 8, 2007 at 8:07 pm

    Hrmm removed my post?

  45. ASShole said,

    August 8, 2007 at 8:12 pm

    BTW glad you got fired DAoC best move this far…


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